Some would take your words in a bad way, but I hear your words how you intend them and it is very nice.

It is interesting that you were led by the Lord to quote that particular verse. We may not be as far apart in fundamental (core) theological beliefs as I had assumed from our discourse.

Yes, we are truly saved by Grace, (lest any man should boast), but “Doing the will of the Father” is not just professing belief in Christ, it is demonstrating or proving this belief by rejecting sin and following His teachings, ie. “doing good works,” being obedient to His comandments, thus “DOING the will of the Father.”

We also know of a surity that faith without works is dead. Amplyfing this teaching is Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.” This clearly shows that obedience to the law is required by God, not merely professed (insincere?) belief or “calling upon the Lord.”

Following the reciprocal of this logic, those who do the will of the Father (i.e., live lives of obedience) will enter the kingdom (v. 21), but those who practice lawlessness (i.e., live lives disobedient to the comandments) will not enter the kingdom (v. 23). It follows then that “Doing the will of the Father” refers to obeying God, which is in direct contrast to “practicing lawlessness” or living a life of disobedience to God’s will (comandments.)

For a while there, I thought you were advocating the “Free Grace” position, but I stand corrected. You obvoiusly have a deep understanding and love for the real meat of the Gospel of Christ – namely that the first and second great comandment are actually one in the same (true belief = charitable acts).

Another important thing to consider is that those who lack this knowledge will not be judged by it (as this would not be fair, and we know that God is infinitely fair). Of course, having eaten at the table of Christ, this does not apply to us, but it clearly applies to many in this world filled with great diversity of religious persuasions and understandings.

I have shown ample places where Mormon beliefs absolutely conflict with the Bible. Mormons do not believe in Jesus of the Bible not on my opinion but on the description Jesus Himself gave. You believe in a false Christ and if you look at my blog on a false Christ He says so. The Mormon faith has changed Christ to fit what they want, it is a 100% different Christ and not Christ of the Bible. If you want to believe in a different Christ that is your choice. You just cannot try to convince me, others, or proclaim that it is the same Christ because it is deceitful and wicked to do so.

When you die you will know that all that He has said was true, full, and complete. Sadly, if you do not choose to believe Him you will die and eternally be separated from Him.

As far as the physical church I am not speaking of a building of brick and stone as being the only thing that Mormons are stuck on by the fact that they are so stuck on the Mormon establisment (physical too) being the only true church they get off track of what is important. It is not about a building, it is not about an organization, it is not about one religion. It is about Jesus Christ of the Bible and since you do not worship Jesus Christ of the Bible as G_d and admit that you will not be a god then you will not be able to grasp (unless your eyes are no longer blind to the truth) the simple fact that the church is the body of Christ Jesus, the true believers not the Mormon church/faith/temple/members etc. This is what I was saying. I do hear what you are saying about the Boy Scouts but again you used the Priesthood and Christ clearly laid out the Priesthood. It is evident you are placing your faith and trust in the wrong place. It is not about the place it is about the person of Jesus of the Bible.

You play word games as does the church and get off on issues to distract from the truth. The truth is that Jesus Christ is Lord, His blood is sufficient for all sins – the Mormon faith teaches that His blood does not cover all sins, the virgin birth was without sex- the Mormon faith teaches it is with sex yet the word games continue and she is still a virgin in certain terms because she had sex with god not man…just evil things really, so you cannot say to me that the Mormon teachings do not contradict the Bible as they do all the way down the line. There is no other G_d but ONE and you teach you can become a god. You are being deceitful either purposefully or out of blindness to the truth.

I have made clear in other places on my blog that I am not open to debate just for the sake of debate. I am here to help and to be a source of information. If you want to change me or I have to change you then it is not a sincere discussion. If this is the case, then out of respect, our discussions should end here. Agreeing to disagree is not an issue for me but having people not be forthright and saying things that are untrue are an issue. I do know the faith inside and out and I have for the majority of my life. So, I’m not someone who just comes along and decided to study Mormons. Most people can be fooled with the secrecy, deceitfulness, the word games, but I have lived this so I know what is going on, what is taught, and I do know that there are some amazing Mormon people who have no idea of these things. I also know there those that truly want to do the right things. The clear fact remains that the church and its beliefs are not true and the leaders know they are deceiving souls.

You will not be able to make me understand because I have tasted the living waters and I will never thirst, so I am not thirsty for what you bring me claiming to be water. It may be water but a water that will leave me thirsting again. Once you have tasted the living water and drink from that cup there is no chance that anything else would ever tempt you because you are 100% satisfied. I would not try to make you understand because only Christ Jesus of the Bible can do that. I do hope that you find saving grace through Jesus Christ but that will be between you and G_d because it is so personal. If you do ever have questions and you are sincere about learning please ask I am more than happy to serve you. If you are sincere about discussing differences that is fine too as long as you can come and be truthful. With your comment starting saying the Bible does not contradict Mormon teaching you began with a lie. My other Mormon friends at least come honestly and that allows a sincere conversation to take place.

May you be blessed and your family also.

Oh yes, to your other comment. I did forget to respond.

Chip said: The question that theologians have struggled with for centuries is how can God know our destiny without that fore-knowledge determining our destiny? Though many have tried to reconcile these 2 seemingly contradictory truths, it has only been recently that science has been able to offer a possible solution to this theological dilema.

You see, science now tells us that an infinite number of multiple parallel universes are possible, even probably. If this scientific theory is indeed true, God can know our fate without if affecting our ability to choose.

FFF: This is the string theory and it only begins to hit upon the infinite and amazing power of G_d. G_d does know our fate without affecting our ability to choose just as He has always stated in His Word. He makes the choice not to choose for us, He does allow that free will. Sadly, there are many things that seem like contradictory truths but if they just had faith and believed G_d for who He says He is they would see that He does not lie. We are always trying to box Him into our idea of who He is. He is so beyond our understanding and His ways seem foolish to the world. I find it a little laughable that science is beginning to give its consent that perhaps G_d was telling the truth after all. Not from your statement but just in modern science and all of its glory (although I enjoy the study). Perhaps in a few more years they may find yet more evidence. I hope they will stop wasting time looking for evidence in the world and look for evidence in G_d’s Word because we all die and if they are searching for proof rather than accepting truth and they die…….they will stand face to face with a G_d that loved them and they will see that He was telling the truth all along……but for some….for many….it will be too late.

If you die today, where will you spend eternity? Not based on you, not based on religious affiliation, not based on how good you are, or what you have done but in Whom you Believe. Matthew 7: 21-23 I am not seeking an answer. This is just a question for your own study.

May the Lord Jesus richly bless you as you seek His face.

You are absolutely correct when you say the we are not puppets. There are many small things on which believers will disagree but they are not worth causing division. The main points of salvation all believers agree upon. G_d loves us so much that He did come to save us all. He loves us so much that He gave us free will. He loves us enough that although it breaks His heart He will allow us to reject Him and spend eternity away from Him. He would not wish for us to spend eternity away from Him but He just loves us enough to fully give us that choice. In that way we know His love. He too knows our love because we are not forced to accept Him it is a decision. Man, He is so amazing.

When it comes to the internet you are right on. Very good and very bad. I gave you the links in hope that you may find some of it useful until you can get a Greek/English translation bible tool etc. I prefer the tangible text reference and tools but I’m old school in that sense.

As far as the Mormon version of the bible allow me to clarify. In the Mormon approved version I mentioned you will find at the bottom (the footnote) it shows the changes from the Mormon church, the Joseph Smith translation of the bible “the inspired bible” with his thousands of changes. So, you may just buy an inpired bible with all of the changes or you may buy an approved King James Version that has in the footnote the changes although the above text is the bible. Although, to add the footnotes contradicting G_d’s inerant Word is very evil. So, when I say a normal Bible from a Christian Bookstore it is just a NKJV or KJV that is the pure Bible and it does not have Mormon influence upon it. That would make it hard to read with an open mind. The notes or footnotes if you do want a Bible with footnotes at that point would be showing you other places in the Bible where that passage is found and just tools for that verse, not false additions. As far as the translation that they read from the pulpit in Mormon churches it more than likely is the inspired version with Joseph Smith’s corrections in the footnotes. That is not the inspired Word of G_d, it is the changed Word of G_d.

The Bible does not need Joseph Smith to decide what is not correct as that is very arrogant of him because G_d is very clear and His Word is complete.

Pharoh’s heart was made hard in the same way our eyes can be blinded to the truth if the true intention of our hearts is evil and we have no intention of following the will of G_d. In which case G_d knows our intentions and for His glory He allowed the things to take place that took place to protect His chosen people and to free them. He could have done it anyway He wanted and He chose that way. Just the same as He will allow our hearts to harden or allow us to completely be given over to sin if we continue walking in sin and purposely refuse Him time and time again. He knows if someone will never turn toward Him and He will allow them to completely be given over to the corruption if we so choose that.

I have the highest respect for the Jewish faith and the Christian faith. I have such a strong admiration, and respect for the Jewish faith and Jewish people. I love all people but they are the chosen ones and G_d’s Holy people. Because of family and friends in the Mormon faith I cannot have anything but love for Mormons. It does sadden me that I have seen family and friends suffer in the Mormon faith and to know they are lied to, to know they have pledged to be killed if they revealed the secret oaths (and they have taken those death oaths) and things in the temple breaks my heart.

When you speak of the Jews not eating pork I agree, for those that do keep Kosher. If it is sin to them it is a sin. If it is not a sin to you it is not a sin, I agree in full.

Thank you for your hand in friendship. I am deeply grateful for the gift of knowing you. May your family be blessed and remain well also.

FFF

There were a few verses that Joseph Smith clarified, such as the verse in Exodus 9:12, 10:20, where the KJ version states that “The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh.” This is obviously a mistranslation, as I find it difficult to believe that the Lord hardens anyone’s heart. We know this by a later verse which states that “Pharaoh hardened his heart to the Lord”. But other than a couple instances like this, Mormons commonly use the King James version. They read from it from the pulpit and teach from it in sunday school. I know first hand for I have done so for 15 years.

I know a little Latin, but Hebrew and Greek are, well… Greek to me (pun intended). I certainly understand the value of reading the scripture in it’s original language, as words frequently don’t translate exactly into English. That’s why there is so much italics in the KJ version. The internet is a powerful force for good as well as evil, allowing your study to be instantly cross-referenced and clarified when confused about an unclear translation. Sometimes it does alter the meaning of a verse, most often it does not.

I also find it helps to read and compare to other period writing to help grasp general themes, and put things in context, setting the social scene if you will. I think any student of Scripture should also read and have available the Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Nag Hamadi. While these ancient texts are not in the same league as Holy Scripture, they are very enlightening and Gnosticism thought provoking. The Koran, on the other hand, I found a total waste of time; quite unlike the philosophys of Buddha and Confucius, where “pearls of great price” can be found mingled amongst the chaff.

Thanks for your concern and friendship. I hope you and yours are and remain well.

By the way, just to know better whom I am speaking with, What is your spiritual backgronnd and religious affiliation, if any?

My wife regularly attends a Presbyterian church. I work every Sunday, so unfortunately, I can’t attend church much.
They are a bunch of fine, committed people, however I do not accept their Calvinistic belief in predistination, espoused by their denomination. I do not believes God chooses who he will save and who he won’t. He chose to save us all. This is clearly evidenced by multiple verses of scripture. We choose whether to follow our hearts in deciding to do what we feel is right. In my case, it’s choosing to follow Christ, and allowing his redemptive sacrifice to take effect in my life.

I refuse to believe that we are all merely actors on a stage, and that the script is written beforehand. Yes, I acknowledge that we each have certain human tendencies (influenced by our genes and our upbringing), however I know that I have free will.

The question that theologians have struggled with for centuries is how can God know our destiny without that fore-knowledge determining our destiny? Though many have tried to reconcile these 2 seemingly contradictory truths, it has only been recently that science has been able to offer a possible solution to this theological dilema.

You see, science now tells us that an infinite number of multiple parallel universes are possible, even probably. If this scientific theory is indeed true, God can know our fate without if affecting our ability to choose. This is because all possible outcomes of our decisions occur. It follows that our job (if you will) is to be the person who takes the correct path through this maze to return to Him (whether that Him is Triune in nature or otherwise, as most of humanity believes.)

I do not believe, as other’s do, that somehow my salvation hinges upon my understanding of this or any other point of doctrine. For surely if it does, we are all doomed, as we could never get everything right in one short lifetime! Going back to the political issues before us, this is where I see it absurd to judge someone, in this case Mitt Romney, for following a particular Christ believing faith. It would be better to judge a person’s moral character (for fitness of office) by how well he holds to the tennants of what he knows in his heart, and professes to be true, not whether it is absolute truth.

For instance, does he pay a full and honest tithe, as he believes he should? Since he believes abortion is tantamount to murder, is he resolved to fight it with all his being? Does he follow the word of wisdom, refraining from the use of substances that he accepts as harmful to his body (Temple of the soul)? Is he honest with his fellow man in all business and personal dealings, as he believes the Lord commands?

And if not, is he repentant in trying to right the wrongs he’s done in the past? Since he or any other candidate has chosen his path, he must abide it. For instance, if a kosher Jew knowingly and wilfully eats pork, he is clearly sinning, as he is doing what he believes to be wrong in the sight of God. A Mormon must then be judged simmilarly by his faith. Since we, as Christians, don’t believe this is sinful, we will be held blameless for having partaken. There may be health issues we must face for transgressing a law of nature (God’s laws), but there will be no eternal consequences, as no sin has been committed.

These are the questions, relating to honor and virtue we should be asking of all our Presidential candidates, and indeed, of ourselves. IMHO

After Florida, it looks like Sen. McCain is likely to win the Republican nomination. It’s a shame about Fred Thompson droping out, and Mike Huckabee having such a poor showing. It looks like we’re going to have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, as always. May the Lord bless us with discernment in this serious matter.

Thanks again for this discourse, and the forum to express opposing viewpoints, so we may all be lovingly reproved (as the Lord sees fit) and edified from our participation.

I believe I told you that I would explain how G_d used the very first verse of the Old Testament to introduce the Trinity.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The word God in Hebrew the word used here is Eloheem more than one. He used this name for Himself.

The word created (Borah) in it’s literal translation means created from nothing. He is beyond limits in His own words in the very first verse of the Bible. Cool that He starts it out that way!

With the word Eloheem it is a plural noun and created is a singular verb. A plural noun and a singular verb cannot be used together, so He is explaining to us He is a plural G_d and also singular. WE cannot comprehend but we can apprehend, we can be arrogant or be humble and take G_d for who He says He is. He cannot be boxed in. He is bigger than us. He cannot be fit into our understanding. We cannot define Him. He defines who He is.

I want to encourage you to learn Hebrew, Greek, and possibly Latin (which is very easy to learn and much of our language comes from Latin root words anyway). You are incredibly talented and gifted. I believe that you could grasp the challenge easily. For someone like you to learn the text in it’s true form and look at the words in text and see how they were intended. For those who are able to take the text and have faith it is what it says that is enough. For those who do enjoy a mental challenge I would encourage you to look at the origin of each word. For example the word love is broken down in the bible and used and if you look at it’s original text you will see that love means agape, sometimes (which is G_d’s love, and at other times it is another form. They all do mean love yet when you look at it’s original text it just offers you such a deeper understanding of the value of that word. Just a fun challenge.

Greek words for love and how they are used in the bible as the correct word love but to look deeper only describes the depth of the word used for love:

agape noun G_d’s love sometimes an action sometimes a principle
agapao verb (to love G_d)
Eros sexual love
Storge family love
Philia brotherly love
astorgos lacking natural affection in Romans1:31 and
2 Timothy 3:3

With the Hebrew Old Testament the word love is much like the English and German language in that the word love covers all meanings. The word ahav the verb form and the word ahava the noun form.

God’s love Jeremiah 31:3
Love of God Deuteronomy 6:5
Love of a friend 2 Samuel 1:26
love for a girl Genesis 29:20
sexual love Proverbs 7:18
love of money Ecclesiastes 5:10
love in vanity Psalm 4:2
loving fellow man Leviticus 19:18
all are love yet research to see what the Greek word was behind the word love and it is so much more rich in meaning. However, even as love it is not wrong in any way.

In Latin dilectio stands for the Greek word agapê and in Latin amor stands for the Greek word philia.

biblegateway.com has a lot of info and different translations with some foreign language. Just in case you do not have a bible at home.

http://www.studylight.org/ has some hebrew translation tools. Possibly others too. I just found a title Hebrew thoughts but I haven’t looked into this site much.

http://biblestudytools.net/InterlinearBible/ supposedly has Greek Hebrew text alongside English.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm supposedly has Greek Hebrew text tools with English.

Have fun. I do suggest just reading it in English and enjoying learning and the original text tools would be to expound on questions or to just grow as you learn G_d’s Word.

FFF

Thank you for writing and as always it is great hearing from you. You have some excellent questions and I hope that this will be helpful.

As far as the Catholic church being the true church, they are. As believers of Christ the Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Non-denominational whomever it is that calles themselves a believer in Christ Jesus of the Bible and takes Him at His Word for who He says He is, they are the true church. He says so in His Word. The Mormon church gets so side tracked by the whole true church thing. It is not a physical building, not a dominant religion, it is about Jesus of the Bible not a church denomination. If someone is a true follower of Christ of the Bible they are the true church. This is why the Mormon church will never be the true church because they do not abide in Christ Jesus of the Bible therefore making it impossible to be the true Church. Remember, Jesus makes up the church the church body is His body of believers not a building, not a religion. If you get side tracked on that you will lose sight of what is truly important and it’s about Jesus of the Bible not a church.

That leads to the most important topic of all. You have to decide who Jesus is. He asks that in His Word. Who do you say that I am? He tells us. Do you believe Him? The most important issue in not who Christians call themselves but who people call Jesus. If you do not believe that Jesus is G_d, (and we are not god/G_d), you will die in your sins.
John 8:24
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

“I AM” is G_d’s memorial name forever.
Exodus 3:14-15 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”
15: Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

The Priesthood of believers belongs to all people who call Jesus God. The word Saint in Greek means “set apart one”. Romans 1:7 and Ephesians 1:1 show that all Christians are saints.

Peter writes this letter to God’s elect, Christians 1 Peter 1: 1-2
He then says in 1 Peter 2:9 “You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.”

Christians are not part of the Levitical priesthood (nor are Mormons) that was established by the Old Covenant, the Levitical priesthood will later be used again when the temple is rebuilt. It will be the Levites who once again have the duties of priest in the temple service.

There are many verses which I would be honored to share with you regarding salvation which is Christianity. It all comes down to who you believe Jesus is. If you believe in Jesus of the Bible and take Him at His Word 100% you are a Christian, you are saved.

It comes down to what Jesus told the people in John 8. Some Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God, if they do the also believe that they too can become gods. That is not true. If you do not believe that Jesus is God (and we are not) then you will die in your sins.
John 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:24 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?” And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Steve, a Jew or anyone else, can be a Christian, it is those that abide in His Word…not changed word, not other scriptures….His Word. He is talking to the Jews here (but this is for all of us) so they are not calling themselves Christians although they are saved if they abide His Word as He says. Mormons do not follow His word they follow additional scriptures which He tells us not to do. He gave us complete work, He is that awesome and capable. My G_d does not have limits and His Word is complete. If you do not believe in Jesus of the Bible, and His Word (alone) you are not a believer. It is not the term Christian or who we call ourselves that is the most important thing. It truly is about who we believe Jesus to be. That is what sets Christians and Mormons apart. Unless you believe in Jesus of the Bible and who He says He is you will die in your sins and you are not a believer by whatever name you want to be called.

What is mandantory for salvation? What makes a believer a Christian….what secures our salvation in better terms?
1) Jesus is God, and we are not
2) Jesus rose bodily from the grave
These are the true essentials of faith. If you cannot believe these things, you are not a believer, not a Christian, not a follower of Jesus Christ of the Bible…whatever you want to call yourself is not as important as the fact that you are not saved and your salvation is not secure. You are not saved and you will not go to heaven the be with Jesus.

Our salvation is not based on the priesthood of someone who lived before us. It is based solely on our faith in Jesus, our Great High Priest and Savior, God in the flesh. If you get sidetracked with how the line of priests was passed down you lose sight of the true focus. The focus is on who people say Jesus is. That determines our salvation, not former people who have lived on earth.

If you have any further questions please feel free to ask. I hope this clears things up. There are lots of verses that get into salvation and Christianity however, I don’t want to overload you and unless you are sincerely interested in searching out the verses. I don’t want to waste your time. In fairness if you cannot agree on what is mandantory for salvation the two items listed above Jesus is G_d and we are not, Jesus rose bodily from the grave then we are wasting our time in debate. If you do agree, there are so many awesome verses I would be happy to share with you if you have true interest in seeking them out.

It has been wonderful speaking with you and I pray that the G_d of understanding will open your heart and mind to His Word and the saving Knowledge and Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

May you be blessed this day!

FFF